All right. It looks like the the process of people entering the the waiting room has slowed down to the point where we can get started. I might have to keep clicking here for a few minutes as people come in. But welcome and thank you for attending today's workshop, optimizing your law school application process. I want to make sure everybody can hear me. So if you wouldn't mind, maybe just give me a thumbs up or something is an indication that that's okay. Perfect. I see a right off the bat. Thank you. Okay. Good. My name is Greg Foster. I am the Interim Executive Director at Cornell Career Services. And I'm also the pre-law and pre graduate school advisor at Cornell Career Services. And we are today going to be talking about the law school application process, which many of you might already be in or at least considering. So hopefully this is a timely subject and we'll have an opportunity to, to get your questions answered and and hopefully cover some of the basics. In case set. In case said, you need that kind of assistance. And I'll just keep letting people come in as a as a show up in the waiting room. So if you see me doing that, that's that's what I'm doing. All right. So a little bit about my background. Prior to arriving at Cornell, I practiced law for about 25 years. I did litigation. I was basically a trial lawyer. I did both criminal defense work in civil litigation involving medical malpractice and what they call bad faith insurance practices. After that, I founded a sports promotion firm called the Fc Tucson and I served as general counsel there. And then after doing that for about seven years, arrived at, at Cornell. Alright. I would like to make this as interactive as possible. I'm very happy to take questions as they come up. I know that we have a pretty large group today, and so it may be easiest if you put your questions in the chat, I will try to get to them as I can. There's not a bad time for a question in this presentation. And then also, to the extent that we can't cover the questions while we're working through the slides. At the end, I'd be very happy to take it as some questions. So please, if you have questions, don't hesitate to ask. This presentation is being recorded. It will be posted in the Cornell Career Services resource library. So if you want to refer back to it, you'll be able to do so there. All right. So what are we going to be talking about today? We're going to be focusing on basically the entire application process. Talk about the timing of your application, what the components of the application are. We're going to be diving into a little bit of information about the LSAT test, about how you might develop a list of schools that you want to apply to. How you will draft a personal statement, how you'll get letters of recommendation. And then as I said, we'll try to answer your questions as we go. And at the end. All right. Before we dive into the law school application process itself, I think it's important to talk about the career development cycle. And this is something that in career services at Cornell we really think is applicable at every career development process you might go through. So essentially we think the career development is a cycle made up of 33 phases that kind of happen in sequence. The first space being, understand yourself, what are your interests, your values, your strengths, and your goals. The second stage in cycle is exploring your options. And that really just means researching what's out there. Whether you do some online research, whether you do some networking, whether you're involved in campus activities or internships, as are always to explore what's out there. And then finally. The last phase in the career development cycle is taking action. And that just really means applying for something. So wild today we are going to be talking about the law school application process. And it will feel like we're focusing on the take action part of the cycle. We're also going to be referencing the other two phases because in order to really take action, well, it, you need to do the work and the understand yourself and explore your options phases. And we'll talk a little bit about how you might do that. Today. Also want to point out a couple of key resources that you may or may not already know about. But we have a canvas module called the Career Development toolkit. And that can be accessed through our website. And it has essentially chapters on many of the important career development process is that you might go through. Since we're talking about law school today, I'll highlight the fact that we have a pre-law module. And that pre-lab Marshall really kind of covers everything from Should I go to LA, spoke to how do I drafted personal statement. So very brand to the very focused. I would recommend giving that a once-over. Kinda maybe spent 20 minutes just reading through it. So you know what's there. And then kind of expect to use it as a reference tool throughout your application process. And we think that Canvas or that the Career Development Toolkit is a, is a powerful tool. It's not a substitute for advising. So we still encourage you to, to meet with us to go over your applications. But it is hopefully a helpful reference to. All right. What are the components of the law school application? Most of you probably know this, but I think it's good just to review. You're going to be submitting your GPA, your LSAT score. You're going to be working with the Credential Assembly Service through the law school admission council to pull together your application materials in addition to your GPA and your LSAT you're going to be submitting letters of recommendation, a personal statement, possibly some optional essays, and in some cases Agenda. And then it could be a diversity statement. It could be something that deals with maybe complicating part, complicated part of your application. Whether it's maybe a, a lower than, than hope for LSAT score or lower than, than hope for GPA. Or in some cases it could be a character and fitness kind of question. So it's possible that you will also be submitting adenda it with your application. So we're going to talk about each of those components today. All right. Why don't we start with timing. Basically, Most law school applications open up September 1. So the application cycle kinda begin September 1. Many law schools have a deadline for submission of your application in early to mid February. Have some law schools are later than that. And it's important when you create your law school, your list of law schools that you're going to apply to the go to their websites and you definitely confirm the deadline for submitting your application. I don't think you should wait until the last second. And that's not why I'm saying know, the deadline. I think knowing that deadline just gives you a sense for how much time do you have to apply to. And if you decide that you want to say, for example, take the LSAT one more time. If you know the deadline for the schools that you're applying to and you know, essentially the latest LSAT score that they'll be willing to consider. We'll also talk a little bit about what it means to apply early and early decision. So let's break that down a little bit. What it means to apply early if you're talking to pre-law advisors or other people who are familiar with the law school application process. Or maybe you're looking on Reddit and some other sites. And looking at commentary about the application process will probably hear people say, it helps to apply early. Okay, generally, that's true, but let's talk a little bit about why that's the case for why it can be helpful. Essentially, prior to the law school application cycle, beginning. Deans of Admission and law school professionals are at law school admission professionals at the various schools sit down at their school and they say, Okay, what is the mission for our upcoming class? You know, what, what do we want the profile of our class today we've got 200 seats or 250 seats. How Do we want to fill them? And they'll look at things like, okay, last year, for example, or GPA median was a little bit lower than we wanted it to be. Let's try to raise that for the next year. They might say the same thing for the LSAT. It might say last year, we were not where we want to be  on certain diversity factors. So let's, let's do better this year. And they'll come up with a mission for that class. At the beginning of the application process. They have the mission and it's their job to meet that mission. And they haven't completely empty class and they have all the money that they're going to have to spend on financial aid, merit aid, or need-based aid. And they don't know what's going to happen. So if an application arrives early and it's a person that fits that profile that they're trying to meet for their class mission that year. That's great. They can fill a seat with a person that meets their profile and that gets him that much closer to meeting their mission. So for some schools, they'll have that experience. So they'll have a number of early applicants who fit the profile and that they will try to secure those applicants. Some other schools will have the experience not fit, not finding applicants who really fit the profile early on. And so what can happen is the schools that are coming close to meeting that mission can get more selective later in the process. The schools that are not quite meeting their mission may need to look more broadly for applicants. Later in the process. You're never going to know which schools are having which experiences. So it's really kinda, it's hard to predict that. But if you want to try to reach your school at a time when they have an empty class and all the money they're going to have to spend on financial aid. Applying early can help you do that. Now. I would not apply early at the expense of applying. Well, meaning, if you're thinking, I know, I think I should take the LSAT one more time, but I really want to get my application and before the end of October, so I don't have time to do it. That might not be the way to approach. It is probably more important to give another shot here I'll SAT exam so you can get a higher score than it is to apply in late October rather than say the end of November or December. Also, if you just don't think your essays are where they need to be and you need more time. You should take the pressure off yourself, give yourself a little bit more time to, well, rather than worrying about meeting, you know, what, somebody might believe this and early deadline. All right? Now, early decision, that's different from, from applying early and many of you know this and may have actually used early decision in applying to undergraduate. So early decision can be an effective way to get the, the decision you want from your target score. So essentially the way I think about this is if your, if your application sort of fits the profile of that school pretty well and you apply early decision, you probably increasing the chance that they're going to offer you admission. I think it's also true that if your application profile doesn't really fit the mission of that, that law school for their class, applying early decision doesn't necessarily help. Kind of a shorthand way of thinking of it is applying early decision doesn't really make you a candidate. You are not already. And so in some cases, it can be beneficial if you think you're you're pretty much in the ballpark for that last rule to apply early decision. Now, are there downsides to doing that? Potentially, there are many people are going to seek financial aid to help them with the costs of law school. And when you apply early decision, you're committing to that school. If they say yes to you, you'll be saying yes to them. They may or may not offer you a financial package that you're happy with. If you've applied early decision. Now you're pretty much going to have to go with the financial package that the school offers. If, on the other hand, you had applied to an array of schools and you are maybe getting some other offers of admission with differing amounts of financial aid. You can bring those other amounts back to the school you're interested in and say, Hey, would you reconsider my financial aid offer in light of these other operas I have. So early decision takes that off the table for you, and it's something to consider before committing to it. All right, I see in the chat there's a question. All right, what, what are examples of the types of student profiles and law schools may be looking for. Great question. And I knew what I was saying was kinda begging that question. I think the easiest way to think about this is maybe in terms of what we call objective factors, the L, SAT, and GPA. So let's, let's just use a simple example to illustrate this. Let's say that you have a GPA of at 35 and you got a 163 on the LSAT. I'm just making up numbers, of course. And let's say you want to apply to a school that typically starts admitting students, are applicants in greater numbers at a 167 on the outset. So your LSAT score is, is significantly below where they're typically admitting students. That's kind of what I mean by being sort of outside of the profile. So if you are applying early and looking for an advantage for doing that, but your objective factors are outside of the range that that school typically looks for. It may not make much difference that you applied URL or early decision for that matter. So that, that's kind of what I'm talking about. All right, I see another question in the chat. What advice you have for splitters, people who have a super high GPA and a low LSAT score or vice versa. Another really good question. So that often is a good time for using an addendum. And what you're really trying to do and that with your objective factors, your grace and your outset is you're trying to give evidence that you are going to thrive in the academic environment at a law school. And so let's say you, but at Cornell you done really well. You've gotten, again, I'm going to make up the GPA. Got a 39 GPA. You take the LSAT, you give it your best shot, maybe even take it two or three times and top out at it. Make up a number here to a 160. And you, and you have your sights set on law schools that have a significantly higher LSAT, that requirement, but a score that they, that they hope for. So you still want to try to apply to that school. What you would do is submit an addendum. And the addendum would first say, Look, my GPA is what best characterizes my academic abilities. It took me four years to get it. I worked hard over the course of four years. I was consistent. I achieved year after year after year, and I got a 39. We all sat. Does not reflect my abilities first because it's so different than my GPA. But then second, maybe something, maybe there's something about the outset for you that that has put you at a disadvantage. So it could be something practical like and you're working 40 hours a week and you just don't have the time to devote to the LSAT prep that some others might have. Perfectly valid to point that out. You might be in a, in a setting, particularly during COVID, we had some applicants who are overseas and we're in settings where there are internet was unstable and really help during their LSAT, power went out or something went wrong or, or something precluded them from preparing for the LSAT. And so they didn't do as well. You might want to put that, that information in an addendum to causing the law schools to focus more on on your GPA rather than your l sat. There are a number of different reasons that can be used to explain the difference. And sometimes that can be very helpful and that's definitely something I can help with. Our pre-law advisor can help help you craft your applications. All right. I'm seeing another question. Okay. I'm going to ask this last question. I'm going to have to kind of move through some slides. These are all good questions so that it's not mean to diminish the question. And that this last question is, how much longer will the LSAT and B I think it was online. I don't know the answer to that question. I don't think anybody has said that for certain. But what I can say is that I think that once the law school admission council learned how to administer this online with remote proctors. Things got a lot easier for the law school admission council. When when it first-line digital a couple of years ago, they literally shipped laptops out to the testing sites. The applicant took their tests on their laptops, and then the laptops were shipped back to Al sac. That's not a very efficient way to do this. And so I think that maybe they do like the remote proctoring situation. My guess is that will stay in that kind of a setting. I haven't heard anything inconsistent with that so far. All right. I'm going to reserve the questions here for a minute so we can get through a couple of these slides. I'll try to get back to and I appreciate the questions. One of the LSAT. How to approach this? My short answer is, preparation really makes the difference. Most law schools rely heavily on LSAT scores, fulfilling their classes and and for figuring out how to distribute financial aid money. Why is that? One? One reason is because law schools believe that the LSAT is a reasonable predictor of how you will perform when you're in law school as a student. Another reason is that law schools are very sensitive about the ranking. And the LSAT score plays a significant role in the ranking formula that US News and World Report and in other agencies use to rank law schools. And so they need to keep an eye on the LSAT median that they submit to these ranking agencies. And so because the law school's care so much about the LSAT, applicants also have to care about the outset. There obviously some problems with that, that, that we can get into at a different time. But it's sort of the world that we're in and so we need to, we need to act accordingly. So preparation is key. And I think it's important to think about timing when we think about preparation. It takes probably, I would say on average 2.5 to three months. Fairly intense study to really put your best foot forward on the LSAT. And I've heard people say, well, it's, it takes a 180 hours of preparation or it takes 210. I've even heard 250. I don't know which of those numbers is Ryan. I'm sure it's different for different people. But if you apply those numbers across and 2.5 or three month period, and it gives you a sense for the time commitment that you'll have to really prepare. And so I think planning to take the LSAT when you have 2.5 to three months to really focus on preparation is important. I also think it's important to keep in mind the possibility that you may take the test more than once. Obviously, you don't want to take it more than once if you don't have to. But a lot of people end up deciding to take it more than once. So when you're picking your date, I think it's a good idea to build in 2.5 to three months of preparation time before the test, but also a backup tests That's close enough in time to the first test where you don't lose the steady gains. For the second test. Keeping in mind that you want your scores to count for the application cycle that you're in. So that's going to mean different things to different people. But one way to think about it is maybe you pick in the year that you intend to apply, a July, September sort of cadence for the tests, or a August, October that keeps the tests fairly close together. And it also makes sure that the test scores are going to count that application cycle. We talked a little bit about the the LSAT format based on a question we had already. As far as I know, it's going to remain live in remote proctored for the foreseeable future. Alright, and I am seeing the questions and I'm going to probably hold off on these for a little bit so we can just keep moving through, but I certainly answer them by the end. All right? Okay. Again, preparation makes a difference. What are some resources for preparation? You might want to start at the law school admission council website. There's a really good compilation. There are test prep books and vendors and practice tests. So that can be a starting point for deciding what materials you want to use to prepare. It's important when you're, you're gonna be doing a lot of practice tests and hopefully a lot of time to practice tests. You want to try to use copyrighted test materials because they're going to be as close as possible to the test questions that you're going to get when you take the actual tests. And so look for that. When you're evaluating books you're using or the vendors are using, make sure that they have access to copyrighted testing materials. Alright, commercial courses. Some, there's a number of them out there. Cap on, of course is one of them. There are many others. Are they a good idea? I think it depends on the person taking the test. You have to think about how you like to prepare for tests. The tests courses, the commercial courses can provide structure for your preparation. And they can provide assistance with some of the technical things that come up. Maybe technique for certain. Areas of the test. It's important to understand also that they can be expensive and the instruction quality is not the same one vendor to another. So it's a good idea to do a little bit of investigation. I like asking peers who are taking, who've already taken the LSAT recently or also investigating, they might have some insights into which programs they alike. One tip that I can give is that the Khan Academy. There's a free, steady program offered by the law school admission council. That is worth investigating. You may decide it's not the right program for you, but you can do some diagnostic work with that and kind of see where your strong where you're not, whether you're comfortable with Khan Academy or whether you'd like to look further at other test providers, but you might give that a try before diving in with any particular test bender. Alright, and I do see there's a recommendation for Odyssey test prep that's in the chat, so I appreciate I appreciate that. That recommendation. Right. Okay. Credential Assembly Service. Everybody who applies, the law school's going to have to deal with the Credential Assembly Service. Basically, what this is is it's offered by the law school admission council, l sac, and essentially transcripts, letters of recommendation, and all the other documents you're going to submit with your application are going to be compiled into your credit Credential Assembly service account with Al sac. So essentially, I'll sack is going to combine these documents that you submit with your LSAT score. And then when you ask them to, they're going to forward these reports to each of the schools that you intend to apply to. And most of the law, almost all, probably all the law schools that people on this Zoom call we'll be applying. Two, are going to require the user credential assembly service for your application process. So basically my tip here is that get familiar with that. Visit the SAC website, learn how the Credential Assembly Service works. So that basically when issues come up, you feel like you have a pretty good handle on on where to source the answers for those problems. So do spend a little bit of time on EL SAC website viewing the Credential Assembly Service. Maybe before you start submitting all your documents to that service. Now there is a cost, it's a $195. Your account is going to remain active for five years. You can see on this slide what you get for that a $195. Of course, the whole process of applying to law school is costly between application, these credit, and then the Credential Assembly Service aim for LSAT test prep courses. So it's not a bad idea to seek a fee waiver through L sac for the Credential Assembly Service. They try to limit the fee waivers that they offer to what they referred to as extreme cases of meed. It will probably be easier to get fee waivers for the application fees at the various law schools that you apply to, then it will be to get a fee waiver from L sac. So sometimes it's not a bad idea to do that fee waiver process first for L sac because whatever you pulled together for them will probably be more than enough to apply it for fee waivers, various schools for their application. So sometimes it's not a bad idea to start with a few ever process through the Credential Assembly Service and go from there. All right. Seeing another question here. Alright, so here's a question I think I will take up since we're talking about the Credential Assembly Service right now, there's a question indicating, since not all courses are professors offer grades up to an a plus at Cornell. How is our GPA evaluated by the Credential Assembly Service? Should we write our GPA out out of 4 or 4.3? Okay? So basically, what I will tell you about this is that you're absolutely right. Gssac is going to take your, your your GPA and apply a formula to it essentially standardizes GPAs for all of the schools across the country, undergraduate institutions across the country. That the effect of that for Cornell students is that because we have a 4.3 scale, there is sometimes a little bit of depression of your GPA when Al sac applies their formula to it. It's usually not very much It's typically not meaningful. And I want to reassure you that the law schools you're applying to also understand the rigor of a Cornell Undergraduate Education and take that into account. So yes, you might see a little bit of a depression in your, in your GPA when this formula is applied. But no, it shouldn't make a meaningful difference in the overall application process. All right. Let's see. In terms of creating your your credential assembly service account et al sac. You can see the steps on the screen here. My my main guidance here and I'm being mindful of time a little bit, is hop on the L SAC website and check out the procedure, get familiar with it. We are here as pre-law advisors to help you with that with any issues that you might come across with this with the service, usually applicant's work it out fairly easily. But if you are running into an issue in setting up your account, please don't hesitate to contact me or pre-law advisor on campus for help. All right. We have a question here about using the GRE rather than the LSAT for the law school application process? I want to answer that question. Let me just advanced society, the sea where we are. Okay, good, good, good his place as any to talk about the Jerry. Okay. So the contexts that this is coming up with is that person is asking about a situation where one might want to apply for a joint JD PhD degree. And what about taking a GRE in that circumstance? Do law school's view? The GRE? Okay. In the last several years, law schools have become much more liberal, combat accepting the GRE rather than the LSAT in the law school application process. There are some good things about that. One of the things is if you're thinking about applying for a joint degree, that simplifies your process potentially because you only have to take the GRE, not both the Gerry and the LSAT. And also for people who aren't sure whether they want to go to law school or some other kind of graduate school. And that would require a GRE. That allows you to basically keep your options open by taking the GRE, can apply it either through the graduate school process. For the last compresses. Not all law schools are accepting the GRE, get more and more are not all law schools are fully accepting and GRE, meeting. Some law schools are still piloting this, which may mean that they're saying, hey, you know, out of our 200 and available seats were willing to accept 20 students who have only taken the GRE, something like that. So it's still accepted maybe in a limited way. I'm law schools as well. I think the other thing to keep in mind is even know the GRE has been available as an admissions tests for law schools now for several years. How the GRE, What else had an a GRE? Do different things for law schools in terms of their rankings. So the LSAT is a big part of the ranking formula for law schools. And the GRE is not yet in that position. So what does that mean for you? It may mean that if you had taken the SAT and gotten a highest score, that could have been very helpful to you in getting admitted to law school. Because of law schools, again, that LSAT score helps the law school with the GRE because that's not yet an important factor in the ranking formula. While the GRE might help the law school understand your academic capability, it doesn't help the law school in terms of their their ranking. And that might serve as not as great an incentive for law school law few ignition. A similar candidate who has a high LSAT score is competing for the same spot. So that is something to keep in mind if you're not sure whether to take the LSAT or the GRE, you may lean towards the LSAT. In the case of somebody who's looking at a JD PhD program, maybe you do only take the GRE. I think what I would do in that case though, is I might even talk to the admissions professionals at the law school where I'm applying for that and say, look, is there anything I need to know about only taking the GRE if I'm applying for a JD PhD program. Is there a downside to that? You can you can tell me about before you make your decision to rely only on Cherry. Um, and I apologize if that's creates some ambiguity. I think law schools are working hard to try to make the GRE as sort of be on the same footing as the LSAT is. I just don't think we're quite there yet. All right. Okay. So one more question about the LSAT than I probably need to move on. And the question is, if we take the LSAT right after graduation and are satisfied with our S4, but then worked for two to three years before applying to law school. Do I recommend read taking the LSAT? Okay. Good question. Sometimes there are aspects of your application that you would update. Let's see, you got letters of recommendation right when he graduated, but then he worked for two or three years. You may want those to be updated to reflect the good work you've done since you graduated with regarding the LSAT, the scale remains the same. So generally a 168 on the LSAT will mean the same thing if you took it in 2021 as it would if you took it in 2023. Generally. There is a little bit of a sense that, hey, last year, there were more higher scores on the LSAT then in some previous years. That does sort of raise a question. Maybe you will. Should I take it again? Maybe I would get a higher score too. I think if you take the LSAT and you get a strong score, for the most part, you should set that part of the application process aside. You've done it. You've succeeded there. I don't think you need to retake it just because two to three years past. If you take the LSAT and it seems good you in the moment, but then he worked for two or three years and maybe you you've decided you have some different goals for the law schools you want to attend in them I require a higher LSAT. Then again, then you may want to take the L setting in. Certainly that may be a case-by-case basis and and that could be a good subject for for individual advising. But thank you for that question. Alright, developing a list of schools. So here maybe you got your LSAT score. And now you're thinking about, okay, where should I apply? You want to try think like a lawyer here. We want to look for credible, unbiased sources of information about law schools. And we'll talk about what some of those sources can be in a minute. There are a lot of factors in deciding where you want to go to law school. I've listed some here. This is not an exhaustive list. You'll have some personal factors that you might want to add to the list. But for example, location can be a factor. So it ends. For many lawyers, they end up practicing in the same market for much of their career. And that's how we build up a positive reputation. And that reputation helps them to gain more clients and helps them courtroom because judges and other lawyers are aware of the good work that that lawyer does because they'd been around a long time and working our net market. The legal community that you're a part of is often very important to lawyers. That can be the source of your first job or your second job. It can be the source of clients appear in private practice and that legal community. And you join it really in the first day of law school. And so attending law school in the community where you ultimately want to work can help you get a head start. And I'm joining that legal community and building your reputation at community. So location can matter. For many lawyers. Cost, of course matters. The cost to law school. I think that faculty matters. I think it's important to know something about the faculty at the law schools that you're applying to. If you have a particular Practice area that you're excited about. Are there members of the faculty at the law school is you're considering who are publishing in that area, who are writing law review articles are cases in that areas. Those are good things to know. Diversity factors are important as well. This says, hey, if there's anyone who doesn't have their computer's muted, please do so. I think we're getting a little bit of feedback and thank you. Your career goals matter. You know, what, what are you aiming for? Some law schools will be a better fit for this career goals and others. Reputation of the Law School's does matter. They're ranking is not everything, but it is something and it's something to take into account. We can talk about where that fits in as well. And then experiential learning opportunities are important as well. Those are things you want to investigate at the Law School. So these are some of the factors that you want to take into account. All right, how do you research these things? Here? I do want to kind of draw your attention back to the Career Development toolkit and the pre-law module of many of the resources that I've linked here in this sort of awkward way by just putting the URLs there. You can also access to the pre-law module on Career Development toolkit. I've broken them down into a couple of categories. So it's important to think about employment. And ultimately, for most people who go to law school, they're going to want to find a job as a lawyer somewhere. And so you want to know how that law school that you're thinking about performs in terms of placement. These are some of the some of the resources you can use to check that out. One that I would highlight on this list is the ABA report disclosures. So the American Bar Association requires that every law school produced two reports every year about their school. One relates to sort of information about their most recent incoming class. That's an important report to look at it since we're talking about employment, I want to focus on the other one. The other report that they have to provide is employment outcomes for their most recent class. And this is a great report, is pretty granular. And it has everything from private sector employment to public sector employment. In the private sector, it'll have law firms and it breaks it down by size, so it'll be one or more. 502. One task requires 250 to five hundred, one hundred and two hundred fifty, 50 to a 100, 550, et cetera, et cetera. So you'll be able to see our graduates go into large law firms, medium-sized law firms, smaller firms, all of the above. You'll be able to see whether lawyers are going into private practice or public service. Are they working for government agencies? Are they getting judicial clerkships? Those are really good. Information sets snow about when you're applying from law school. Other things to look at, of course, everyone is concerned about likelihood of admission. And so I know that you're going to want to look at that. So I've linked a couple of things here. And again, these are in the career development toolkit as well. I include the Boston College Law School locator, Even though it's a little bit old now and and we said thing, we get updated. But it's an interesting tool because it tries to blend the LSAT and then GPA into, into one category and give you a sense about that blend in category. I would say to update that it's a very cool tool. That is all I think it's still worth looking at. And I would also mention the law school action report. That is something that I have in my office. And you can stop by if you're on campus anytime and look at it. I can't let it go outside the office. But basically, that shows you where every Cornell and applied to law school last year and what the outcome of that output of that application. About as close as you're going to get to your own situation because these are all Cornell students, sort of Cornell Alumni. So there's similarly situated to you. And that's something that if you have the opportunity to look at, I would if you're, for example, a member of the Alumni and you're not on campus. You can send me a list of schools. And I can take a look at the report myself and give you a sense for a person with your TPN else at how it went for that Cornell applicants at a particular law school last year. So I'm happy that helped me with that. If you'd like. All right. Let's see. I've got a question here. Okay, good, good question here. I think probably I might reserve this for a second because we're going to deal with this. But the question is, some say L SAT and GPA is all that really matters for an application. Even if schools say that is not all they care about. What other factors can actually help you. Letters of recommendation, legacy, diversity, same school as your undergraduate education, et cetera. It's a really good question. Alright. Let me answer the question and I'll leave this screen up. You can look at some of the other resources for developing a list of schools. So, okay, how to think about this? I've tried to sort of formulate a way to think about this question. Basically, I think the way it goes is this. When your application arrives in the law school, they're going to say, okay, I think I might have mentioned this earlier, but we've got 200 applicants with roughly at 35 GPA and a 163. And the LSAT, we can take 50 of those 200s had 200. How do we distinguish the 50 we can take from the 200 who've applied? That's when they look at your background and experience. And your background and experience are expressed through your letters of recommendation, your essays, resume. And that is how law schools take make a holistic review of your application. They do want to know about your background, they do want to know about your experience. And that is meaningful information. So there's maybe a threshold up front where they say, Okay, this GPA in this L SAT is in the ballpark for us. Once you cross that threshold, they are definitely going to look at your background. Compiler. Reason for that is just numbers. I mean, a lot of people have the same LSAT score. A lot of people have it similar GPA. So how do you distinguish those people? Some people have background and experience that demonstrates that better than their GPA or they're outside, does that they will thrive in the academic environment and that particular law school. So it really isn't just down to your LSAT and your GPA. However, your L SAT and GPA are pretty important. I know that's a little bit of an ambiguous answer. I hope that's okay for now. See, okay, There's a question about junior to pro programs. Let me get to that, but I do kind of want to move through a few more slides and we're getting tight on time. I do want to point out one last thing on this. Oops. Let's senior and I go back this far on this slide. I want to point out two things. One, know that there are several pre-law advisors on campus at, at Cornell. There should be one and your college. We all work together. So we collaborate. We're part of a network. We share ideas with each other. If there are particularly challenging questions that a student brings, try to kind of crowdsource and answer among each other. And so I'm a big fan of having more than one pre-law advisor take a look of your application materials and talk to you about the application process. We will probably have similar approaches, but we might have somewhat different observations. And I think that's to your benefit. So I'd encourage you to see the names on the list here and feel free to contact any of those people to help you with your process. Alright, let's see, new to the next slide. All right, let's talk a little bit about the personal statement. That's another thing you're going to be submitting. People really, I think feel some stress around the personal statement. They feel like they, they really need to get this right to put their best foot forward. I think it's true that you want to do well on this, but I don't think it's a matter of getting it right. Many times applicants will ask the question, what are law schools looking for? What do Law School's want? I try to nudge people away from that thought process because I don't think that's the way that law schools think about it. They're looking to have a diverse class, people with, with many different backgrounds. And that's for good reasons. The law sort of touches everything. A wide range of people and an entities need the services of lawyers. If every lawyer came from the same background and receive the same training, we'd have a huge access to justice. Well, let me say it this way. We'd have an even bigger access to justice problem than we already have. Law schools know this and they're trying to work on it. And so they very much want to bring a diverse group of people into their law school classes. So why am I talking about that when I'm talking about personal statement? It's because the personal statement is what it sounds like. It needs to be personal to you. Your goal with this document is to do two things. To introduce yourself to the law schools and to positively distinguish yourself from other applicants. Now how do you do that? Starting point is that the statements should be about, you, should be about things that you personally observed and personally experienced. You want to try to avoid a lengthy discussion of issues or of a mentor or something external to, you know, you can reference those things. But really it's gotta be more about your own personal experience, your own personal observations. Talk about who you are and what is important to talk about, what is unique about here and would distinguish you from other applicants. So how do you do that? Well, first, do be aware of guidelines that law schools provide in their applications. So there's a prompt about the personal statement. Follow that prompt. That's an important thing for you to do. There is no prompt. And you're wondering, well, what are they asking for a year? Generally, what they're looking for is a two page statement that's double-spaced and introduces you score. Now, how do you get there? I think it's a good idea to journal. Now I say that as somebody who doesn't journal. But in this case I think I would what do I mean by that? What I mean is set aside a period of time before you sit down to write that write your personal statement. That could be three days, it could be a week, it could be a month is sort of based on how much time you have. But do some journaling, write down ideas that occur to you that you think you want to convey to a law school. Keep that list, add to it as new ideas come. But also remove ideas from that list if they stop resonating with you. And hopefully what happens is over time, new kind of distill that list down to a core set of ideas that you want to communicate to law school. And then with those ideas, see if you can develop a vignette for each one, a little story for each one that you can tie together thematically. I think if you do that, you're going to end up with something that's a little more original and unique and distinguishes you from other applicants. Some people like to tell a story. Other people like to kind of dive into something a little more straightforward in this story and, and really just tell that the law school about themselves either approaches, okay. Now, we're going to have a workshop. I think it's on October first about writing personal statements for law school. You'll be getting some information about that through Handshake. That could be a good, a good time to sit down and, and, and listen to some ideas about personal statements. In the meantime, I'm very happy, as on the other pre-law advisors on campus to review your personal statements. And so please don't hesitate to to set appointments with us and to to email them to us for review at a time as well. All right. I know that we have a question to get to and I want to try to hit letters of recommendation before we run out of time here and then we can dive into these questions. Alright, big picture. What is a letter of recommendation? To use a lawyers vernacular? It's basically an expert witness opinion about whether you will thrive in a law school's academic environment? All right. We're going to probably need two or three of those. You want to ask. If you think about who's reading these things. Many times, it's a law professor. So as a person who's both a lawyer and a professor, when that person receives your letter. And the lawyer part of them is usually going to ask the question, how does this person who's expressing this opinion Know what they claim to know about this person. So is this person credible, credible person to offer this opinion? What that basically means is, do they understand the academic environment and do they know this applicant? Well? The reason why professors are often really good recommenders for law school undergraduate professors is because they do understand the academic environment. And so they sort of past that credibility test with the people who are going to read these letters. It's also important that, that professor knows you and knows your work well. So when you're thinking about who your recommenders are, and it's a good idea to think about how well does this person know? Now what a, what about somebody who's not a professor? Can they be a valid recommender? A definitely can. Sometimes you need to assist that person a little bit. You need to help them think about, well, what do Law School's care about in newsletters? And so you might get them a little bit focused on the skills that law schools typically care about. And that usually boils down to three to five things. They care about written communication skills, research skills, and analytical skills. They also care about leadership and collaborative skills. So you kind of want to prepare your recommenders to be able to speak to those things. That might mean that you give them a copy of your transcripts and your resume. It might mean that you put your work product in front of them. So this is a supervisor from work. Maybe you're a member of the Alumni and he'd been out for a year to maybe you need to give that person a really good memo, you Britain, or some other example of your work so they can refer to that. You might also want to give them a few bullet points about what you think the law schools are going to care about. So basically you're helping to prepare the recommenders to succeed. And again, in our advising appointments, we can certainly help you kinda tailor that information and make sure you're preparing this is recommended for success. Alright, I see another question. What I want to do is just look ahead here. Last thing I want to talk about, when we get to the questions, I highly recommend attending our virtual graduate and professional school day that's coming up on September 28th. You'll be seeing things in a handshake that remind you about that and give me an opportunity to register for it. And this is going to give you a chance to meet with admissions professionals from a large number of law schools. I would recommend taking a look at the Law School's ahead of time. So you can decide if you want to talk to. But this is going to be helpful for a number of reasons. One, it helps you to do some discovery about the law schools and about the application process from the perspective of an admissions professional. So even if the law school you're talking to isn't necessarily one that you're going to apply to. You are going to learn from them about what they care about in the application process. And that's going to apply to all the other law schools probably as well. If you are talking to law school that you're interested in. And that gives you a chance to make a positive impression. They are going to note the fact that they've talked to you and that will end up in a file that will get activated if you end up applying there. But also you're going to be able to sometime during the application process, refer back to that conversation that you've had a representative from that law school and say, Hey, I had a great conversation with that person. I learned this in that it got me more excited about the law school. And it it will reflect the fact that you're committed possibly to attending law school. And admissions professionals really like to see that. All right. I kind of rushed through the NX. I didn't want to get to some questions. Here's a summary of the tips. Let me go back to these questions that I'm getting and please feel free if you have other questions, throw them in the chat. We are over time. If you don't have questions, don't worry. You don't need to hang out if you don't want to, but if you want to hear these questions and answers, feel free to stick around. I certainly well, and try to get through. Okay. We have a question. For current juniors. What are your thoughts on pursuing junior deferral programs? Are they more selective than typical admissions or are they more flexible? Alright. Do you need to, for all programs, can be good for people who are interested in that process. And what that process basically is, is you apply early the end of your junior year. You'll get an answer about whether you're admitted shortly after that. But as part of your admission, you're required to take a gap year or two. Harvard has something called the junior default program. Um, I'll talk a little bit about that because that's one that's fairly well known. So essentially, for that program you are applying the end of your junior year. No need here l sat by then, so it kind of accelerates your timeline. And you'll also need your other application materials. It can be a positive program because essentially it gives you the security of knowing that you've been admitted to law school. And it kind of forces you to take this two gap years so that you can go out and benefit from a gap year knowing that you're already admitted to law school. One of the things I like about this programs is very often they don't tell you what to do. Your gap years, they just say go out and do something that's important to you. I think that's great. We can talk at some other point about why gap yours can be helpful. But I do think that for the right person, this is a good program. Now, are they more selective, at least in the case of the harbor and junior to 40 program. That it does seem to be a more selective process. Not that many people from Cornell apply. And in a very small number are admitted. So just from that very small dataset, it does feel a little more selective. It is doable though, and I often do help a small number of people each year in applying to that program. So if it's something you're interested in, I'm very happy to talk about that in an individual advising appointment. Alright, trying to get through other questions here. Next one, should we write different essays for the various schools were applying to? All right. Some schools are going to ask for different kinds of essays that have different kinds of prompts and certainly want to be responsive to those prompts. Most schools, all schools probably going to require a personal statement. Many schools also allow a diversity statement. Those essays could be pretty much the same for every law school you apply it to. Now, having said that, particularly with the personal statement, sometimes it's not a bad idea to tailor that statement for each law school you're applying to. So maybe essentially 80 to 90 percent of your personal statement is about the same for every law school. That maybe about 10 to 15 to 20 percent is a little bit more directed to the individual school you're applying to. And that may take the form. Someone saying, maybe they've expressed, I'm really interested, for example, in environmental law. And I'm excited about your school because you have this great environmental law journal and this great clinic that I'm interested in. And you're in a market where there are a lot of law firms who have environmental law practices, et cetera, et cetera. Tailoring it in that way can help the law school understand that there's a good fit, that you're a good fit for the school and the school is a good fit for you. That sometimes can be a helpful way to advance your costs. So in some instances, yes, tailing your essays could be helpful. Next question. How many letters are too many? They are quality letters that you believe will help your application. Usually the answer to that is found in the law school application website. And it'll tell you how many letters they want. They might say, you know, minimum of two maximum of three, minimum of two maximum  of 4. Usually it'll be laid out for you in that way. How many is too many? Well, don't go over the maximum that you're giving them more than what they wanted and that's not going to be appreciated. So usually what I will do is I aim for two if they need three, okay, you're gonna have to go out and get that third one. If you've got three. And they only ask for they ask for a range of two to three. Once in awhile. It's not a bad idea to just submit the two. And then maybe if you're waitlisted, one of the things that you communicate to the law school while you're on the waitlist is that third letter of recommendation? That's a little bit of a strategy call an ddefinitely one that's good for individual advising to try to help you execute was best in your situation. So for that, helps answer that question. Next question, any recommendations for students that haven't been able to form relationships with professors since we had been doing online school for so long. Oh my gosh. What a great question. Okay. You're right. That's, that's a challenge. And it is one that a lot of people are going to have to confront. I wanna kinda offer some reassurance. You're not alone. Many, many, many students are, are feeling the same way. And professors are also in that, in that boat. I do think it still is important to try to cultivate a relationship. with professors, and how do you do that? It's going to take some intentionality. They're the kind of obvious things like attending office hours. I think sometimes having a good approach those conversations can help to sometimes starting with the career development conversation rather than a can I get a letter of recommendation conversation is a helpful way to do it. And so you might approach two or three of your professors in an office hour setting and try to initiate kind of a conversation about career development that may not turn into a letter of recommendation at that first meeting or a second or a third meeting. But moves you sort of on a path toward being in a place where when you do ask for a letter of recommendation, it feel more familiar with you and and more ready to, to write a letter of recommendation. So I think what I'm kind of advocating is look for the opportunities now to have conversations with professors. Don't be outcome-oriented right at first. But maybe start talking about career development in addition to maybe the content in their class as well. That might be a starting point. Again, something that takes some strategy and something I'm happy to talk about in an individual appointment. You definitely raising an important issue. And one that a lot of, a lot of students are grappling with right now. All right. There's a question which LSAT tests month is the most popular. I should know that. I should know which ones have the highest number of applicants. I don't know that off the top of my head. You know, many many applicants understand that they've got to pay attention to the timing of the application cycle and deadlines. So it may be that those late summer, early fall tests end up being the ones that most people take. That would be my guess right now. All right. Let's see. Next question. If we work two to three years before applying to law school, do you recommend also asking Professor recommendations? Okay. If you're already out two to three years and you haven't asked professors for recommendations. I think it's still okay to explore that with professors who you might still be in relationship with or who you think you can kind of restart that relationship. But if you find that that's just not doable, you're not going to be able to get there. Then I think it's totally valid to focus on Current people in your work-life. Supervisors, for example, they are going to take probably some it's going to require some help to get them up to speed in terms of what law schools are looking for. So that'll be getting them prepared to write a good letter. If you are currently in school. But you think you're not gonna apply for two to three years? I think that I would aim for being in relationship with professors now, suggesting to them that you might want a letter of recommendation when you apply in two to three years, professor might say, okay, let's just stay in conversation until you're ready. And then at that point, let me know and I'll write a letter then that takes into account what you've done in school, but also you've done in your work-life. Other professors might say, Okay, I want to write that letter now. And you can just hold onto it until you need it. Okay. If they did, they say that you're going to need a place to store those letters. We have a system that we use called Interfolio that you can access on our website. That is a storage site essentially for those letters. Another scenario is a recommender might say, Okay, I'm willing to write a letter now, but I'll probably want to update that letter if you're going to apply two years from now. So let me know when you're going to apply and I'll update that letter. And what should you do? Should you do in that case? Definitely, let them write the letter now prepare them to write a good letter. But I would also stand conversation with them so that they're aware of the good work you're doing after graduation and they're ready to update the letter when the time comes. All right. Let's see. Next question. Let's see. Is there a benefit for admission boost to applying to the law school? We are currently attending undergrad. Okay. Good question. Potentially. One of the things that i've I've heard over time at Cornell and that's, that's where we're talking about probably. Is that yes, they do value graduates from Cornell. They definitely understand excellent education that you're getting here. And that can, that can be helpful. You might have even established relationships at the law school. Maybe you took a class there as an undergrad or maybe you're working in a clinic that allows both undergrads and law students to work in a clinic. Those are really good things. One of the things that also I think is important is it may be that admissions officers at Cornell Law School who asked the question, okay. Does this applicant really want to spend another three years in Ithaca? And that's not, I'm not being, I'm not critiquing Ithaca here. I'm just saying that that that can be a little bit of a concern. And and it's helpful to reassure the Law School in this case, maybe Cornell Law School, that yes, you, you you really like if you would like to spend your law school years in Cornell. And here's why. That can be a little bit of an extra thing that you might want to throw in somewhere in an application essay. It's convenient at Cornell because their application literally has a question. Why Cornell? That might be a good place to, to reassure them that yes, you are interested in attending this school. Alright, let's see, For the next question is, for early decision applicants are need-based financial packages still offered? Short answer is yes. And I don't want to imply that you're going to get an unfair offer. If you Apply early decision. That is, that's I don't think that's going to happen. What what you're able to do when you apply to multiple schools as well, when you apply a school's period, is you get that first offer and whether it's need-based or merit-based financial aid or both. If you look at first number, you can certainly go back to the law school and say, Would you be willing to reconsider my my financial aid offer? For these reasons? Whatever your reasons are. When you apply early decision. You don't have the opportunity to share with the law school. Other offers you've received from other law schools. Sometimes those other offers can help motivate a law school to offer you more money. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But they can be useful. When you apply early decision. You're not, that's not going to be a tool in your toolbox. Now, when you ask for that reconsideration of your financial aid offer when you've applied early decision. There are other things that you can talk about. Maybe there's something about your financial situation. They don't know. Maybe they haven't taken, you know, you're in the quality of your candidacy into full account in offering you admission, Maybe like focus and then a little bit more on, on some aspect of your application that you think requires more merit aid or should inspire more merit aid. Maybe they haven't thought about one of this scholarships they have that they could add on to that financial aid package that they've offered. In addition to need-based financial aid and sort of generic merit-based financial aid. There may be other scholarships that law school offers that they haven't thought of in making their financial aid offer to you. So those are things to consider. All right, Let's see next question here. If you do postgraduate study after graduating undergrad from Cornell, the year before you are planning to apply? Should you have recommenders from where you completed the study or have the professors from undergrad write your letters? which is preferred. Okay, I'm, I'm going to kind of paraphrase that. Which is better. Letters of recommendation from your undergraduate institution or from your graduate school. And the short answer there is, they're both good, or potentially they're both good. And really what you're trying to get to is a professor who knows you, knows your work well, as going to say something positive about you. That could be an undergraduate professor. It could be a Graduate School professor. It could be a very prestigious professor. It could be an assistant professor who just knows your work really well. It really depends on how well that professor knows you and what they, what they want to say about you. So I would just encourage you to have that kind of a conversation with the professors that you're considering. Whether it's graduates, study postgraduate study, undergraduate study, graduate study, trying to find out from them, you know, are they excited about writing this letter? Do they know enough about to to talk about you in detail? And if they do, then I think they're going to be credible. And I think there'll be good letter writers. All right, last question I'm seeing and I really appreciate all these questions. I'm sorry if I'm giving them a little bit of short shrift, I'd be very happy to follow up with any of you in it. Individual advising capacity. What do you advise for using letters of recommendation from the previous year? I'm not sure I understand that question. And to the person who asked that question, I don't know. You could if you want, you get unmuted and clarify it. And then essentially we mean by the previous year. Now give me a second here if you're still here. All right. I'm not hearing a clarification then S. Okay. So I think what I'll do I'll answer this the best I can. It might be talking about if you you've applied previously and you're going to apply again. If you've done that, I think it is okay to use the same letter of recommendation. Now overall, if you're going to apply to the same law school a second time around. I think it's important in the application to acknowledge that you're doing that and to sort of tell the Law School, and here's what's different this time about my application. Maybe have more work experience, maybe you took the LSAT and got a higher score. Maybe you do have a new letter of recommendation. But I think it's important to highlight what has changed in a positive way from the previous year's application? I'm not sure that's answering the question that you are asking. And begin be very happy in a in a one-on-one advising schedule or advising appointment to I had to answer that question. It is 6:07  we're way over time. I really appreciate everyone being here. I sure hope you Feel free to contact me for advising appointments or other pre-law advisors. And also hope I see everybody at the graduate and professional school day. Thank you so much.